My response to dumbledoresarmy re: Kinana of Khaybar and "Liberated One"

dda:

From the thread in question dedicated to LO's "happiness" that she has told her monstrous family that she has left Islam (on top of already rubbing their faces with her haram freedom by inviting her Christian BF to dinner with them):

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/11/ex-muslim-in-muslim-country-tells-family-about-her-apostasy-i-am-actually-happy.html#comments

When Gunung wrote:

And to claim that "There has never been a case of honor killing in this country and not likely to be one now." is ridiculous

KK responded:

You are taking very flimsy and ambiguous examples, and in making your case you are stretching them way beyond what is warranted.

It's more likely that the Liberated One was simply mistaken in stating that there were no instances of honour killings in the UAE. It is not uncommon for people to speak from experience and unintentionally overstate matters, or to be imprecise, or to not bother with adding qualifiers like "to the best of my knowledge [there have been no honour killings]".

Then, to Infidel Pride's characteristically cogent pessimism about anything to do with Muslims, KK wrote:

As for Liberated's knowledge of the Islam problem in all its aspects, I think we have to keep in mind that she has only been an apostate for about a year or so, and may not be focusing on researching the problems in Islam to the same extent as long-time Jihad-watch readers such as us. One person's lived experience is not the same as a comprehensive body of knowledge obtained over several years. When mistakes happen they can be corrected and people can be educated. There is no need to throw out the baby with the bathwater here.

But the problem is not that LO is remiss in "all its aspects" of the Islam problem (*straw man alert*) -- it's more pertinently that she is remiss in the pernicious danger of fanaticism which leads to honor killings (and other assorted violent assaults inspired by that fanaticism).  No Muslim who is a) intelligent; b) has grown up in a Muslim family; c) has grown up in a Muslim-majority society; d) has grown up in a Muslim country; e) has had misgivings about how bad Islam is; and finally f) has familiarity with the writings of Ali Sina and Jihad Watch -- can then turn around and be excused of this degree of elementary ignorance she has shown of the pernicious danger of the fanaticism of Islam which leads to honor killings (and other assorted violent assaults inspired by that fanaticism).  But KK twists and turns to do precisely that.

More from KK:

I was not referring to her knowledge of the level of risk generally faced by Muslim apostates who come out. She seems to be well aware of the level of risk in general, which is why she remains anonymous. To assess the level of risk to her, in her own situation with her family, requires not only a general knowledge of Muslims' attitudes and behaviour but of the particular facts about her family, knowledge which Liberated has but which we don't (or not much). So the commenters who are casting hasty and hostile judgements against Liberated are doing so without a complete picture, without complete knowledge.

It does not follow that the only possibilities are that she is either "schizophrenic" or is engaging in "deception," as you claim in your ad hominem personal attacks against Liberated.

I should add that the fact that some honour killings have occurred in the UAE in itself doesn't tell us much about the level of risk. For that, we need (as one piece of information out of several) data on the rate of such killings there.

So after all the mountains and oceans of data and dots that scream for connection documented by Jihad Watch over the years (and even just one month should disabuse anyone of elementary intelligence and an open mind of any exculpation (without solidly irrefutable evidence otherwise) for any Muslims whatsoever at any time anywhere), KK is still unsure about the danger of honor killings in the UAE, and he still thinks LO is safe enough from her family.  Meanwhile, he sits patiently by his teletype machine awaiting the final fax that will deliver the stats he needs finally to come to a conclusion other than ambiguity.  While he counsels fiddling, Rome is burning.

I also went into detailed analysis about my critique of KK's logic here in a subsequent comment:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/11/ex-muslim-in-muslim-country-tells-family-about-her-apostasy-i-am-actually-happy.html#comment-916312

(To which, needless to say, he never adequately responded)

KK soon thereafter wrote:

According to her account, Liberated was well aware of, and fearful of, the possibility of family members finding out about her apostasy and killing her.

But I pointed out the painfully obvious point that it's not a matter of whether she's aware of and concerned about danger from her family members -- but to what degree.  She's arguably not concerned enough, if she keeps communicating with them, going to dinner with them and introducing her Christian BF to them in person, continuing to maintain a relationship with them (sending them money thus revealing her location to them) after telling them the shocking information that she has apostasized -- all this indicates that if she is genuine (which I have no reason to dispute), then she's schizo, for God's sake.  KK is trying to square a circle, and using a framework that honor killings are “rare” to do so.  That surely is not helpful as Islam metastasizes all around us.  Furthermore, most everyone here is sentimentalizing LO because she's a female -- oh, poor little girl, she still loves her family, oh how touching, she's conflicted, poor little girl, let me take her hand and comfort her.  No.  In this deadly situation she's in, which she can't see clearly through her schizophrenic Stockholm-Syndrome Denial, she needs some tough love, not this coddling which only endangers her, and communicates, through her platform to the world here on Jihad Watch, the wrong message implying generalities about Muslim families and the relative harmlessness of apostasy and haram lifestyles in deeply, massively Muslim milieus.

A little later, Gunung aptly wrote:

So KK to make every thing fit you even have to play down honour killing

Then he quoted KK:

Honour killings and killings for apostasy are statistically rare; the social and personal tensions and hostilities that Liberated describes are much more common reactions, and thus Liberated's account seems plausible to me on this point as well.

When I then responded to this by impugning the value of statistics-gathering in Muslim countries (i.e., they are utterly worthless due to the endemic and unnaturally high degrees of government and local corruption, and a sociological climate of lying, fear, intimidation, and rampant fanaticism, etc.) by writing:

Yes, I'm sure the statistics-gathering methodology of Muslim countries is very professional and reliable, and that there aren't innumerable honor killings that go unreported, making their methodologies virtually worthless, if not downright misleading in a way that undermines our war of ideas.

-- KK dismissed my comment as a "red herring", then added:

Allowing for various factors that would lead to under-reporting, etc., they're still rare events. Hence, the point I made earlier is unaffected by your objection.

KK can't know they are "rare events", since we don't have adequate data-gathering, due to the diseased factors of Islamic societies.  You  need a relatively healthy society to gather useful statistics -- particularly about the ugly seamier side of that society about which, in addition, Muslims know they need to keep hidden from the West.  I seem to remember an Islam-Apologist troll going on and on about how rape statistics aren’t any worse (if they are not, in fact, better) in Muslim countries, and relying upon statistics to prove it – and then you (dda) and I reminding him that statistics gathering in Muslim countries is well nigh worthless, due to the factors I noted above (in addition, with rape involved, of the shame instilled in women for being raped, and the threat that hangs over them of being killed because they “dishonored” Islam and their families).

Indeed, it has only really been since we have forcibly occupied Muslim societies in Iraq and Afghanistan that we have had the opportunity to see, up close and personal, through the eyes of troops on the ground, the uglier, seamier side of ordinary Muslims and ordinary Muslim society which likely would never have been data-gathered otherwise, whether by Muslims themselves, or by PCMC-addled United Nations human rights groups. 

Buried in the pages of a recent report of interviews with our men and women deployed in Afghanistan, conducted by the US Military (hat tips to Andrew Bostom and Diana West), we learn the following:

As West put it:  "...the U.S. Military conducted interviews (of course buried in a report few are reading and left untouched by the mainstream media) of American military personnel about how they felt trying to “win the hearts and minds” of creatures who have no hearts or minds..."

Here are some quotes from that report:

Many US soldiers were appalled by the rampant torture of dogs and puppies they witnessed while being based with ANSF [Afghanistan National Security Forces] units. Many ANSF members are prone to inflicting abuse onto stray dogs they bring to the base for “entertainment” purposes.

Other ANSF members, while not condoning the torture, fail to see any importance in such behaviors given the standing of dogs in Islam.  Dogs are seen [in Islam] as vermin and many ANSF members find it inexplicable that anyone could be concerned about such "trivial matters," and deeply resent any interference.  [So much for "not condoning the torture"...-- Hesp]  This animal abuse is a substantial psychological stressor for many US soldiers and has been the cause of many serious social altercations with ANSF members.

US soldiers reported that they had observed many cases of child abuse and neglect that infuriated them and alienated them from the civilian populace. They made it very clear that they wanted nothing to do with people who treat children so cruelly.

Although not reported by the US soldiers who participated in this study, there have been numerous accounts of Canadian troops in Kandahar complaining about the rampant sexual abuse of children they have witnessed ANSF personnel commit, including the cultural practice of bacha bazi, as well as the raping and sodomizing of little boys…

Similarly, US soldiers…mentioned the poor treatment and virtual slavery of Women in Afghan society, and how they found such practices repugnant.

They found it unpalatable to befriend other men who had such primitive beliefs; the cultural gulf was too wide.

They were repulsed by the abuse and neglect they observed in how children are treated in Afghan society.

US soldiers largely reported that they did not care for Afghan civilians due to these factors as well as their suspected sympathies for the insurgents.

[End quote]

These aren’t “extremists” or “Salafists” – these are the ordinary “moms and pops” which our men, under our insane COIN policy, have to try to befriend, sit on mats in yoga-style and drink tea with, and spend our blood, money and precious time helping to become human.

[For the source and much more:  http://www.dianawest.net/Home/tabid/36/EntryId/2218/Dying-over-the-Truth-Murder-Inside-the-Wire.aspx ]

If we waited around for KK’s standards of data-gathering before condemning ordinary Muslims and being rationally afraid of their fanatical murderousness, and had we never had the grim opportunity to intrude upon Muslim societies and turn over the rocks and see the maggots crawling underneath, we’d basically be thinking like Bush, Romney, Daniel Pipes, and the whole PC MC establishment.

Given the mountains and oceans of data we do have which indicate a galaxy of dots screaming for connection, and given the problems with data-gathering from Muslim societies which I noted above, it is perversely irrational to persist, as KK does, in demanding irrefutable data before we condemn Islam and before we demand that a Muslim who has grown up in a Muslim family in a Muslim society in a Muslim country show signs of appropriate rational fear and loathing of all Muslims around her including her family before we pronounce her psychologically compromised, and therefore unfit to be showcased as a model of our ongoing education about Islam, apostasy, and Muslim families in relation to apostasy.

At best, LO should be showcased as Exhibit A of Stockholm-Syndrome Denial that persists even after a Muslim grows deeply disenchanted with Islam and eventually leaves it.   Now, that would be a worthwhile teaching point.